Show notes:
Today I am chatting with Destination Wedding planner Michelle Jacobs owner of Elegante by Michelle J. She discusses her wedding industry journey so far and shares her learnings including learning to say no in your wedding business.
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Time Stamps:
00:17 – Starting Your Wedding Business Journey
01:43 – Michelle’s Journey into Wedding Planning
10:50 – Beginning the Journey: From Catering to Wedding Planning
19:20 – The Reality of Wedding Planning
32:03 – The Importance of Networking in Wedding Planning
39:54 – Embracing Technology in Wedding Planning
Transcript:
Michelle
00:00:00.240 – 00:00:15.760
And I wish I had known back then about.
I wish somebody had given me permission to say no earlier in my journey because I think that took so much of me and I could have got rid of that so much earlier and moved on to other things. So I think that’s what I needed to know.
Becca
00:00:17.280 – 00:01:10.680
I’m Becca Poutney, wedding business marketing expert, speaker and blogger and you’re listening to the Wedding Pros who Are Ready to Grow podcast. I’m here to share with you actionable tips, strategies and real life examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level.
If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business doing what you love, then you’re in the right place. Let’s get going with today’s episode. Today I’m chatting with Michelle Jacobs, the wedding planner behind Elegante by Michelle J.
She is a UK based destination wedding planner who describes herself as a curator of magical memories for English speaking couples throughout Europe.
With 16 years of experience in the industry, Michelle is also well known as a Jewish wedding expert and is a big advocate for women over 50 in business. Today I’m going to deep dive into Michelle’s business background and discover some of the highs and lows along the way.
Michelle, welcome to the podcast.
Michelle
00:01:10.680 – 00:01:12.440
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Becca
00:01:12.520 – 00:01:43.140
It’s an absolute pleasure. Thank you for being here.
Now, I don’t actually know a huge amount about you and your business, so I’m really looking forward to finding out a bit more about who you are and what you do and find out your background.
And whenever I have a new guest on the podcast, one of the things I always say is we’re going to go right back to the start because I think it’s important for my listeners to understand why they should listen to you in the first place to understand where you’ve come from. So take us back. Have you always worked in weddings? Did you have a career before weddings? Take us right back through your history.
Michelle
00:01:43.380 – 00:05:33.330
So the answer is no, I haven’t always worked in weddings. And actually I refer to it as if you like a third career. For me, I always say I’m one of the oldies in the industry.
I am now into my 60s, which I can’t really believe, but there you go.
And I started my business in my early 50s, but prior to that when I came out of university back in the 80s, I worked in the market research industry, having a great time working in London in the 80s and then during the 90s and the noughties. When I was bringing up my children, I worked with my husband in his retail business.
And it was only once the children had started to grow up, fly the nest, I wasn’t so needed. There was an opportunity for me to have something for myself. And I’d always been a bit of an event hobbyist, always been involved with.
Even when my kids were at school, I was, you know, chairman of the Parents Association. We used to run charity balls, all that sort of thing.
And speaking to one of the caterers that I used to work with quite regularly, you know, I started to talk about, you know, I’d really like to get into the industry, but not really sure what to do. And he went, come and work for me, Michelle. And that’s how it all started.
So it was the best thing that I could ever have done because, you know, we all hear it as planners. You know, I had one just a month or so ago where the bride said to me, I’ve really enjoyed planning my wedding.
And no offense to her, but she didn’t plan her wedding. I planned her wedding with my team.
She, she enjoyed the bits that she was involved with, but actually understanding what goes on behind the scenes and running a wedding from back of house and juggling multiple events and running a business that is happens to be a wedding planning business is very different. So it was the best thing I could ever have done. And I had three years of really good grounding there before then setting up on my own.
And at the beginning it was very much going to be a planner. I’m going to do everything. I’m going to do weddings, I’m going to do parties, I’m going to do corporate events.
And it was only through Educ myself that I realized I need to hone in on what is it that drives me, what is my niche, what am I really good at, what really excites me? And weddings just became my thing over the course of that process.
And then back in something like 2012, somebody asked me about doing a wedding for them and they didn’t know at that point whether they wanted to get married in the UK or in Italy. They had a holiday home in Italy, so there was a connection. And I stupidly said, oh, I don’t know if I can help you with a wedding in Italy.
So in the end we looked at some weddings in the venues in the uk, but in the end they went off and chose a venue in Italy. And I waved them off and said, I think you should work with an Italian planner.
But they came Back to me because there was, there was just a clash and there was nothing wrong with the planner that they were working with, highly respected Italian planner. It’s just they needed somebody who was on their wavelength and that wasn’t that person. And it was a Jewish wedding. I’m Jewish myself.
I am stand Jewish weddings. I always say, well, I don’t know about Jewish weddings of all levels of observancy. I could write on the back of a postage stamp.
And so I ended up picking that wedding up off the back of that wedding. Somebody booked me for another wedding at the same venue. And here we are now 12, 13 years later and that has become my niche Jewish destination.
Weddings in Europe. It isn’t the only thing I do and I plan a lot of weddings at home and I don’t just plan Jewish weddings.
But that, to sum it all up is how I’ve got to where I’ve got to today.
Becca
00:05:33.490 – 00:06:15.350
Amazing. So you’ve been through a variety of different iterations over your lifespan, over your career.
I want to take you back to that moment where you decided, post children, to go into this catering world, the events world, the weddings world, because a lot of people would struggle to have the confidence at that point in their life to make that kind of change. Because when you, when you become a parent, I’m a parent myself, I’ve got two children, they’re 10 and 8.
Sometimes you can feel like you lose your identity a little bit, you know, your whole life becomes about them. And I know, know other people who say, oh, I wish I’d done this, but just don’t have the confidence to do it at that point in their lifetime.
How did you kind of summon that inner strength? I guess. How did you work out? No, actually, I can do this. It’s fine.
Michelle
00:06:15.350 – 00:10:14.550
I think there’s, there’s two things I think, I think life is, well, oil phrase, life is a journey and you, you, that whole one job for life model, I don’t believe exists in the same way that it perhaps did, you know, 50, 60 years ago when I was a child. And I think we go through that journey of life and every step that we take and everything we do gives us that whole life experience.
So, you know, I have said to myself over the years, oh, if only I’d done this 20 years ago, can you imagine where my business would be now?
But on the other hand, I don’t think that I had all of those life skills and all of that confidence in that, you know, when I was in my 20s and 30s, because you’re absolutely right. You do very much become the mother, the partner, the holder of the fort, but not the lead of your life. Whilst you.
And, you know, I don’t have any problem with that, but you’re suddenly not being this for me. I certainly wasn’t the hugely successful business person while I was bringing my children up. I had been in my 20s in the role that I had then.
I was managing director by the time I was 30 and doing quite well in that corporate world. And then I decided that I needed to take a step back so I could focus on my children.
And working with my husband and his support is what worked for me. But everything that I did, and I think about all the things that I’ve done, you know, I. I learned how to sell when I was back in my 20s.
I learned how to manage projects. I learned how to work with people. You know, I learned so much. And also my confidence in myself as a person grew so much.
So, yes, it was quite daunting and quite challenging. But I would say there was two things. One is I have a bit of a mantra, you know, when I’m feeling a bit.
And we all do it, oh, I don’t know if I can do that. You know, like when I turned down that first destination wedding, you know, never do that. Now, I would never take. I would never take anything.
One that I didn’t think I could deliver, but I now firmly believe that I can deliver everything because I can bring in collaborators and partners to fill the gaps that I don’t have. But so I do now have. Have a mantra that goes, oh, this is a bit daunting, Michelle, but put your big girl’s knickers on and just get on with it.
And I always say nothing is ever as daunting or as bad as you sort of think it is in your head. And as long as you approach it and plan for it and think about what the obstacles could be, what’s the worst that can possibly happen?
Now, realize when we’re planning weddings, we’re taking the most important day of people’s lives, and we absolutely cannot muck it up.
But that doesn’t mean, say, you know, you know, I go and do a wedding in a country I’ve not worked before, or location I’ve not worked before, or, for example, just a couple of months ago, we planned a wedding that was Jewish groom, Hindu bride, and I’d never planned Hindu weddings before, but I brought somebody in to handle that side of things. So it’s all about, you know, just Put my big girls knickers on. I think that’s one thing and it’s a real. It’s.
It’s in my head so, so often it’s like my mantra, yes, you can do this, Michelle, just put your big girls knickers on. And if you take that chance that the likelihood is it will pay off for you.
And the other thing I did really, really early on in my wedding planning business journey is, is I educated myself.
I did so many trainings courses, attending industry events and just especially as I, I started work back in, you know, the 80s, where we didn’t have mobile phones, we didn’t even have computers. I mean, it makes me sound really ancient.
I know, but, you know, we typed on typewriters and we sent things in the post and, you know, it was a very, very different world. And so I’ve had to learn to adapt. We certainly didn’t have social media and blogs and all that sort of thing. So I’ve educated myself.
What I didn’t know, I learned.
And I think that that, coupled with the transferable life skills and putting on my big girls knickers has helped me to get to where I’ve got to today.
Becca
00:10:14.550 – 00:11:05.650
Yeah, and that’s so important, and it’s so important for people to hear that as well, because they may look at you and see what you’ve done and see your success and see planning these weddings all over the place. But actually it’s important that everyone realizes that doesn’t just happen overnight. There’s no magic formula. You’ve put in the hard work.
You had to give yourself the confidence to do it and you had to spend that time working on your business and working on the education. And actually, other people can get to where you. But they probably need to put in the same similar time and effort.
And I think sometimes people want to just get there immediately.
So thank you for sharing that because I think it’s really helpful for people to understand everyone starts somewhere and everyone has to put in the work to get to where they want to be.
So let’s go to the point then, when you decided to leave the caterers and set up your own planning business, whether it was for events, whether it was for weddings.
Do you remember that time and do you remember what you did, how you found your first clients, or were they kind of coming off the back of the catering work that you were doing?
Michelle
00:11:05.730 – 00:14:29.030
So, you know, I’m not afraid to say I, you know, made mistakes in those early days. I certainly wasn’t called Elegante by Michelle J. Back then, and it was just a sort of random stab in the dark.
What, what, what should I call my, my, my business? And I think, you know, there was a little bit of, of naivety about, you know, I’ll just set up, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll get somebody to do me a website.
Doesn’t really matter what it looks like.
As long as I’ve got a website, that’s fine and off we go and hope that the work comes flooding in and hope that, you know, if I, you know, if I get listed in the right places. And so, you know, without a doubt, it was slow to start with.
I think you’re absolutely right in what you said before that it takes an awful lot of hard work monitoring what you’re doing and realizing where you’re making mistakes and not being afraid to turn around and go, I did that wrong. I need to redo it again. But equally, I do think I’ve had some luck.
So, you know, in the early days, there was a word of mouth that, that played a large part in getting me started with the destination weddings.
As I said, you know, that first one that I turned down and then they came back to me and then somebody was at that wedding who was then wanted to book me because they wanted very, very similar experience.
And then somebody who was at that wedding happened to be somewhere when somebody was talking about, oh, my daughter want get married in Italy and said, oh, you must talk to Michelle. And so there was quite a bit of word of mouth to start with.
But after that, I then started to do the work and the education and realized that I had to go back to the beginning and do all the work on launching a business from scratch. And, you know, nobody had said the word SEO to me when I set up my first website.
And that was an absolute revelation when, when I heard about it and I so angry with the person who done my first website, who hadn’t even spoken to me about that and that, you know, so all the.
We’ve worked and I have a team now, but work really, really hard on, you know, blogging and having a strategy and all those sorts of things that I had no idea about at the start. So it was a slow boil or slow simmer to start with.
And then just as it was starting to get going, of course, Covid hit and I thought, oh my goodness, you know, I’m. I’m in my 50s, it’s all going to go away and how am I going to start all over again? But here we are five years later.
And you know, things are going well and, and some years are better than others and, and you know, but generally I think it going back to your question was, you know, how did it start? But you know, yes, I had, I had a, I had, had, had the wrong name. I, I wasn’t doing anything with SEO. My, my social media posting was totally random.
And you know, I, I, I, I can still remember doing my first live. And I think the, the, the, the phone was upside down or back to. But at least I was showing up, right?
Becca
00:14:29.590 – 00:16:11.550
Absolutely. That’s why I wrote a book called Done is Better than Perfect. At least you got it done and then over time you perfect.
So because you say you had some lucky breaks, when I hear you say that, I don’t hear lucky breaks.
I hear someone that was networking, someone that was doing a good job, because actually, even referrals, even word of mouth, it takes you doing a good job for that to happen. Because they wouldn’t say, oh, can I use the same planner as you?
If they’d have turned up and the wedding was an absolute nightmare, they wouldn’t want to touch you with a barge pole.
And so although it feels to us like lucky breaks, actually it’s putting in the work to be in the right places to say yes, yes to people, even if it takes them coming and asking you a couple of times if you’ll plan the wedding and then doing the job well so that word of mouth spreads and people say, yeah, she did a really great job. We’d like to have that too.
And the other thing is, I think is showing people that you’ve done it once always leads in a marketing sense to more business. And that you showed that very well in what you explained. Because often people say to me, I want to do a destination wedding.
And I’ll say, well, have you done one or have you got photos of one? Have you done a photo shoot? Have you got anything? And they say, no.
And I said, well, it’s chicken and egg, because if you don’t show you can do it, no one will ever book you to do it. And you proved that entirely in your first few months of business of doing that Italian wedding.
And then someone else immediately saying, oh, now I’ll book you for my Italian wedding, because you’ve proven that you can do it. So I know you called them lucky breaks, but I’m going to say it wasn’t all luck, Michelle. A lot of it was hard work from you as well.
So over those years, you’ve done all sorts of different Things. Share with us some of the highlights when you look back over your time as Elegante by Michelle J. What are the highlights?
What are some of the best memories or best things you’ve done in your business?
Michelle
00:16:11.630 – 00:19:02.150
I think, I think generally what I love about the destination weddings that I plan is we, we, we watch a vibe building over the course of several days and it’s, it’s, it’s heartwarming to know that we curate the environment for that to happen in.
So, so most of our destination weddings are multi day events and you know, we see all the guests that have come together often from all over the world and that is often part of their rationale for having a destination wedding.
People are going to travel anyway, so why not take them somewhere beautiful in Italy or Spain or Portugal and then they’ll all come together and we’ll get to spend some quality time with them over the course of a few days rather than it being one day. So we, we see that standing on the outside, you know, seeing them all come together on day one, being, you know, very polite, on their best behavior.
I’m not saying they’re not on the best behavior by the end, but by, by the time we get to the end, they’re all best of friends, you know, the people from different families, different age groups because they’ve spent so much quality time together. And me and my team, we find that so heartwarming every single time that we see it.
We’ve, we look well, I’ve worked in some really, really beautiful locations throughout Europe. Italy still remains really, really close to my heart.
We do more weddings than anywhere else in Italy and I have amazing relationships with suppliers and venues throughout Europe. But in particular in Italy, I think, you know, one that really stands out.
We did a second marriage for an American couple and when they came to me, they basically said that when she had got married the first and her parents were very much in control, she’d always wanted to get married in Italy.
As a child they’d spent family holidays in Italy and her dream was to get married in the Florence synagogue and then in a villa for the reception and she wasn’t allowed to have that.
And she had a wedding at home in New York and her new partner who had just proposed to her wanted to give her the dream from when she was a younger girl. And that’s exactly what we did for them. And that was really, really special dream she’d carried with her for so many years.
And we delivered that for her. So that was really lovely. But you know, there’s always stories, there’s always something that happens, always something that goes on.
We did a wedding recently where there was a beach club event on the day before the wedding. And with 10 days to go, the beach club canceled on us and we had 200 guests coming to this wedding.
But that’s what we do, you know, put your big girl knickers on Michelle and go and find them another beach club.
Becca
00:19:02.770 – 00:19:03.450
And I bet you did.
Michelle
00:19:03.450 – 00:19:06.930
We did. And actually I think it was better than the first one. So there you go.
Becca
00:19:06.930 – 00:19:35.100
There you go. Silver linings. That’s the other side of it, of business, isn’t it? People see the glamorous side.
They see us going to these different countries, they see us going to wedding days and they think we lead this glamorous, successful lifestyle.
But the reality of what it takes to be a business owner, a wedding planner, whatever it is that you do for those people listening, is often very different.
Do you have that, do you have friends that think that you just lead this glamorous life and they don’t realize you’re actually rushing around trying to find replacement basement beach clubs?
Michelle
00:19:35.180 – 00:20:50.530
I think there is very definitely a venom. And I live this glamorous life, particularly because I plan destination weddings.
And every wedding requires a certain number of trips to the destination. And then in between that, I’m attending networking events not just in the UK but throughout Europe.
So I’m always on and off planes and actually it can be exhausting, but it looks terribly glamorous. And of course I’m putting it all over my socials because. Because I’m showing what I do and I oh, you’re live, you’re so busy.
And yes, I’m very fortunate because I love it, but it isn’t as glamorous as all that.
Not, you know, when you get up at 3 o’ clock in the morning to catch the 6am flight, because you want to get off the flight and go straight into meetings and make the most of your day. And, you know, we all do in this industry, be it destination or not destination, we work incredibly long days to deliver the wedding that we do.
And I think as beautiful as the weddings are, people forget that we’re the first people in there in the morning when, you know, the first delivery comes in and you know, when the wedding finishes at the end of the night, the people, you know, metaphorically flicking off the light switch when everybody’s gone, that makes for a very long day. That, that in most people’s industries wouldn’t be tolerated, but we do.
Becca
00:20:50.610 – 00:21:10.270
It’s because we love what we do, but we sometimes pay for it because we work far too hard. And we.
Yeah, we talk a lot on this podcast about setting boundaries and making sure that clients know the boundaries, because often we’re our own worst enemies, too, because we reply to emails at 1 o’ clock in the morning and then complain when our couples send US emails at 1:00 clock in the morning even though we’ve done it first.
Michelle
00:21:10.750 – 00:21:30.640
I know, I know. And there’s all of that. You know, I. I always say we, we’re always so busy running around, we never drink as much, as much as we should.
We’re always dehydrated.
You know, I always say I start a wedding day with a full bottle of water, and then about 8 o’ clock at night, I go and get that bottle and it’s still. I managed to do that this whole day.
Becca
00:21:31.040 – 00:21:35.560
We love it. And that’s why we’re all in this crazy industry, because we do, we do love it.
Michelle
00:21:35.560 – 00:21:55.280
Huge honor and privilege, I still think, to help people with the most important days of their life. And, you know, it’s, it’s a lovely job to have and to see the, to see at the end what we’ve achieved, to bring that couple’s dream come to life is.
Is really wonderful. And I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Becca
00:21:55.520 – 00:22:44.240
It is wonderful. And I know that’s why this industry attracts so many people into it, because they, we just love.
Often when people get married, they then start a wedding business themselves because they just love that world of weddings and they want to stay in it.
And I always say, often when I speak on stages to people outside of the industry, I will say, you need to be jealous because we work in the best industry in the whole world, because the wedding industry is like no other industry that you’re going to work in, because it is, it is phenomenal. But as you said, we talked about it a little bit. Then when people look at our Instagrams and they think everything’s amazing.
But we know as business owners, every single one of us, we have good days, we have bad days, we have high points, we have low points. So I want to get into some of that as well.
As you look back over your journey, are there any particular things where you think, actually that was a really difficult time or that was a really big challenge that I needed to overcome? Yeah.
Michelle
00:22:44.240 – 00:24:42.240
So over the years, I’m not going to lie, I have had difficult clients, and I think over the years I’ve learned better how to manage those situations.
Now I normally go through, you know, when they book a wedding planner, it’s, it’s, it’s not just a, you know, book something online or have a brief 10 minute conversation.
And then because it’s a big decision for a couple, so we, we’ve normally chatted at length quite some time before they, you know, sign the contract, you know, make the initial payment.
And so normally before we get to that point, if I can see any red flags of I should have extricated myself earlier because it was making me ill and it was affecting my work for other couples and I sort of convinced myself that you can’t love all of your couples and they’re going to get married and once they get married, that’s it, it’s over. Just put your big girls knickers on and get on with it. And then Covid came along.
So I had them for two years longer and it didn’t get any better, it got worse.
And eventually, and it was far too late, I took the decision to part company with them and it was all quite traumatic and I learned a lot of lessons from that.
And you know, I’m not saying I do it very often, but if I see those signs now, nothing is worth taking on a, a client who is actually going to impact on your life, on your mental health and on the work that you do with, with your other couples.
And it’s really important to find the right couples who you can build a relationship with, that there is mutual respect and that you can work well together because we spend a lot of time together and, and that was just a terrible, terrible experience.
So whilst in some ways it was good to go through because it’s taught me how to a look out for that and how to handle it, it was horrendous at the time.
Becca
00:24:42.400 – 00:25:11.500
Yeah, it’s horrible.
And I’m sure there’s people listening that have been through similar experiences or may even be living through experiences right now where they just feel almost like the couple are taking advantage of them. And often what happens, and I see this play out is people feel like they don’t have any power to do anything about the situation.
And people are so frightened of, well, if I cancel that wedding, what will they say about me? Will they leave me bad reviews? Will they ruin my business? Did that happen to you? Did you get the pushback?
Or is that one of the things that kept you in it for so long?
Michelle
00:25:11.500 – 00:26:47.000
I think that’s what kept me in it for so long. I, you know, I live, I live live in, in quite A small community. I knew people that knew these people.
It then turned out that they, you know, you find out afterwards they have history of that sort of behavior. So when people did hear about it, they had already in their heads, sort of twisted it to know that actually it was more likely to be them than me.
And I think it was, you know, it was earlier in my business journey and I was really worried about that. Would it knock me back or set me back? It never did. And now I sort of know that I have a reputation, I have a name, I have, you know, award winning.
That doesn’t come from not being as, as good at what I do as I am.
And too many people have now attended my weddings to, to, for me to worry about if I decide not to work with somebody or I decide to part company with somebody.
Look, it doesn’t happen every day, thankfully, but I think, I think you have to stop worrying about what will they do for reviews, what will they say to people?
Because if you know in your heart of hearts that you’ve done everything in your power to make this right and that where this coming from is just a clash, you know, you know, the best, the worst case scenario is it’s just like a clash of personalities. But usually it’s, it’s a, it’s a lack of respect for the role of a wedding planner that is driving it. And you just can’t work with people like that.
You just have to move on.
Becca
00:26:47.080 – 00:28:13.410
Yeah. And one of the things that I learned quite early on in my business is that you can only control your own actions.
Other people can say whatever they want about you, whether it’s true or not. They can twist things, they can say whatever they want. But actually we have no control over that as people. We. That’s just going to happen.
But what we have control of is what we do.
And as long as we know that we’ve done everything within our core values, we’ve done everything with dignity and respect, and we haven’t lashed out at these people. And we’ve done it in a, in a professional manner and taken the emotion out of it.
Actually, on the whole, normally it protects us more than it damages us. Because family, health, everything’s got to come first. And no client is more important than your own health, your own family.
And they won’t destroy you in the way that you think they will. Even if they threaten that they will, will often it’s just empty words.
So I just wanted to dwell on that for a moment because I just, I understand that there may be People listening that are right in that situation right now. So if that is you and you’re listening and you’re thinking, help, I need help, reach out to me.
I’m sure Michelle wouldn’t mind if you reached out to her either. And if you need a bit of, you know, courage to know what to do in that situation, then don’t, don’t face it alone, chat to one of us about it.
Now, I want to chat a little bit about destination weddings because as I said earlier, quite a lot of the time people say to me, I’d like to do destination weddings, whether that’s as a photographer, a florist, a cake maker, something else. So in your experience, having done destination weddings now for a number of years, do couples tend to find supplies locally?
Is that what you advocate for? Or do people take people from the UK with them?
Michelle
00:28:13.410 – 00:32:03.240
Have a mix of both is what I would say.
I mean, I’m a prime example in that I’m working with English speaking couples, primarily British couples, but also I work with quite a few American couples because they want to be able to work with somebody who speaks their language rather than work with somebody local where there may be something of a language barrier.
So, you know, I’m a prime example of if they book me, they’re not booking somebody local and there is plenty of opportunity for them to find a local planner to work with. But it’s finding the right planner. And quite often I do pick up weddings from couples who started off with a local planner.
And it’s not because there’s anything necessarily wrong with the local planner, it’s just the service isn’t right for that couple in terms of what suppliers we use. So which ones we take with us and which ones we work with locally.
I try, where possible, to look at what, what can we secure locally because we are transporting a large cohort of people into a destination, making use of their resources. So let’s try to give something to the local economy.
There’s no getting away from the fact that, you know, flying in however many guests to a dest is hardly the most environmentally conscious thing to do. But if we can do something that gives something back, then there’s some element of compensation for that.
But sometimes we just can’t find the right vendor, the right supplier in that particular category for that particular couple. And so there are various categories where we are more likely to, to bring someone from home or from overseas.
And sometimes you’re quite right that, you know, you talked about photographers. More and more we’re finding that we are bringing photography and videography teams from home.
And I think that’s partly about photography styles and videography styles that couples have fallen in love with that we can’t find locally.
It’s also partly behind that connection between the couple and the photographer because on the day, that’s who they’re sort of interacting with most closely. And to get the best out of them, then they need to have a rapport. And if there’s a language barrier that, that might affect that.
So that, that’s something we do. We very rarely bring, you know, catering from overseas. Why take all your guests to Italy where the food is amazing, and not make the most of that?
And I’m a firm advocate for saying don’t just take what you would do at home and do exactly the same wedding in the host country. Let’s take the best of weddings in that country and then blend them with the things from your own culture and customs that are important to you.
But don’t just replicate that wedding. And you’ll get the most out of the local suppliers if you’re embracing their traditions and customs.
So, and I try where I can, to work with local florists, local production companies. We often fly entertainment in just because we can’t get what, what we’re looking for locally.
It’s not that I don’t try, but often we just need to do that. And then things like hair and makeup is another one.
Sometimes we use local suppliers, sometimes just because client wants to work with somebody, the bride wants to work with somebody they know or somebody they can, you can have multiple trials with, that might be something. So it’s, it’s a mix. And I have relationships with locals and also with others who, who we fly in to do the wedding for the couple.
Becca
00:32:03.240 – 00:32:27.460
So a planner’s job always needs to involve a lot of networking because you need to be able to have these different connections. But for what you’re doing, when you’re planning weddings in various parts of Europe and in the UK as well, those connections must be harder to find.
I guess you’ve built it up over years. But how do you go about finding, finding the right people, meeting the right people in the regions where you’re going to plan these weddings?
Michelle
00:32:27.460 – 00:33:51.710
I go to networking events, industry events all over Europe. So in the, in the, in the off seasons, that’s another reason for me traveling. So there’s, there’s, there’s various events that I attend.
I call it speed dating for wedding planners. Where, where, you know, there’s one organization that runs them and they’re in a different host country, country every year. So you get.
But, but they attract vendors and suppliers from all over the world. Mainly, mainly Europe.
And, and essentially you go along and it’s normally a three day event and in the mornings you have 15 minute meetings where you get to chat and you have a whole schedule and you move from table to table and then in the afternoons, in the evenings they have shared experiences and networking events so you get to know them personally.
So I make it my business to do all of that when I, when I go, for example, on a planning trip with a couple or something I might add on extra time either side of the trip with them to go and visit venues that I’ve heard about, but I haven’t visited or suppliers that I want to get to know better.
So there’s an awful lot of investment in my business so that those contacts don’t just feel like there’s some, you know, they’re not just people that have Google Search.
There are, they are people that I have built really, really the same sort of relationships with that we would build if I was planning weddings in the UK and working with UK suppliers. So.
Becca
00:33:51.710 – 00:34:08.390
Yeah, and that’s so important.
It’s so important because your reputation’s on the line and if you’re recommending someone in another country, you need to have the trust in that vendor that they are going to deliver what you expect because otherwise it doesn’t look good on you. So I can see that that’s a big amount of pressure.
Michelle
00:34:08.390 – 00:34:37.690
It’s really important. And there’s all sorts of different events.
There’s like something we call fam trips where invited to go and stay at a venue that I’ve met or a series of venues, or invited by the tourist board to go and tour a region with a number of other planners for them to showcase their region and their venues and their suppliers and it’s just being known so that. And get invited to these things. I mean I could be away every week of the year, but obviously I have to pick and choose which ones I go to.
Becca
00:34:38.090 – 00:34:53.070
Well, that’s a good point actually, because I think that’s something else we should quickly touch on because it can get to a point where you feel like you’ve got too many things that you get invited to or too many things to go to, too many opportunities. How do you decide what’s a valuable opportunity and maybe what isn’t?
Michelle
00:34:53.070 – 00:35:39.900
I think you have to do quite a lot of deep diving into what that event actually is, who’s going to be there, who you’re going to meet, how many days have you got to devote to it, what else? Sometimes. So, so there’s a lot of that working out, which are the ones I really need to be there for.
And then sometimes it’s just about, about, you know, if I’ve got two weddings coming up in May and somebody invites me to an event at the end of April and it’s three or four days out of the office, I’m not going to do it because I’m not going to do anything that’s going to affect those two imminent upcoming weddings.
So sometimes I have to turn down things that I would really like to go to, but sometimes it’s just about doing the deep diving into what that event actually is and what’s going on to be the value to my business if I attend.
Becca
00:35:40.060 – 00:37:07.240
I’m really enjoying everything you’ve got to say because I think there’s this myth in the industry, particularly where people are so drawn to the shiny things, especially with what I talk about marketing and they’re drawn to the new things and the social media and the tick tock and the content creation and the blogs and those are all important things.
But actually the things that I say are always the most important are the two things you’ve really highlighted today, which is putting time and energy into, into networking and meeting people on word of mouth and putting time and energy into education.
And I think just hearing your story, hearing you talk about these amazing things you’ve achieved and how you’ve got there, just really reiterates that to me that there is no quick fix. It’s not just one TikTok post and suddenly you’re going to be a booked out Italian wedding planner. It just isn’t going to happen.
But actually if people are listening and that’s where they want to get to, then it’s down to them to put in those hard hours, to look at the events, to go to the networking, to go and meet the right people, to build the relationships, to put in the time, understand what their website should look like and their branding and their marketing rather than spending money trying to just get the quick fix. Now it must have changed.
Now we said earlier in the introduction you’re a big advocate for women and men over 50 to go into business and to be in the industry. But one of the challenges of that is that the industry moves and that things have changed.
And over the time you’ve been in business, technology must have come on a huge amount in terms of whether or not we Just had mobile phones, let alone TikTok, Instagram and all the rest of it. How have you embraced, embraced those changes without being overwhelmed by them?
Michelle
00:37:08.120 – 00:38:32.150
I think I sort of pride myself on the fact that I, I am quite capable of, if I need, if I need a piece of, if somebody tells me about a piece of software or an app is that I’ll go and delve deep into it to try and work out how to use it and will it help my business. So I have been open to it.
You know, I’m not saying I’m the expert but I’ve realized that, that all of these systems and processes and are all helpful to my business anyway and it, it all comes back to, you know, the whole issue of, you know, we work all these long days and, and it’s so easy to get burnt out but how can we streamline our business?
And one of the ways of doing that and there are lots of different hacks that I’ve learned over the years and different approaches that I’ve needed to take is to look at, you know, which, which, which, which of these processes can I integrate into my business? And I, and, and I’m very much like, if I can’t work them then I’m not, I don’t want my team to do something that I can’t do.
So they might be able to do it better than me, but at least I know how to do it.
So again, it’s just, I’ve just put my big girls knickers on and got on with it and I’ve just learned to, you know, delve deep Google to see how, you know, I’ve got, I’ve got something I can’t do on this. How, how, how, how do. I just had something this morning on Calendly that I couldn’t make work so I just googled it and I found out how to resolve it.
Becca
00:38:32.390 – 00:39:02.370
Yeah, all answers normally are on Google or ChatGPT if you’ve got the time to do it. But I think what’s important out of what you said as well is, is that little phrase you said, just being open to it.
And I think actually what holds people back is when they’re not open to new things, when they’re not open to technology, when they’re not open to at least exploring it and looking at it because they’re so set in their ways and they’ve always done things a certain way and they don’t want to change but actually it’s not necessarily about to technical skill. The first step is just being Open to understanding that maybe things are different.
Michelle
00:39:02.610 – 00:39:05.650
Absolutely. And it. And it can be helpful for the better.
Becca
00:39:05.810 – 00:39:40.910
Yeah, absolutely. And technology, although sometimes it can feel overwhelming and scary, can save you so much time.
I was just set up a CRM system as part of my wedding pro agency for a venue, and this venue is doing multiple weddings every year. And we’re doing everything on spreadsheets and we’ve just set up their system and now over 25 tasks for every single wedding is automated.
And I think, well, how on earth will people doing all of this manually? And now the computer is doing 25 things for every wedding.
And if you’ve got two, three, four weddings a week, like a venue, that is a huge amount of time that can actually be saved by technology.
Michelle
00:39:41.070 – 00:39:43.790
So they can go out and do networking and selling.
Becca
00:39:43.790 – 00:40:29.940
Yeah, exactly. And you can bring. And you’ve got the capacity to bring more weddings in. Absolutely. So I love that.
I love that you’ve embraced technology yourself as well. Now we haven’t got time to talk about it in very much detail.
Maybe I’ll have to bring you back into one of my various different areas to talk about it more. Bit more. But right at the beginning, you mentioned, or I mentioned in your intro that you do say that you’re an expert in Jewish weddings.
And I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to anyone on this podcast that would say they’re an expert in Jewish weddings. So give us. And maybe, like I said, we can get you back to your proper training or teaching on this. Sometimes give us a couple of headline things.
If we are approached by someone who is planning a Jewish wedding, are there certain things we should be aware of? Should we be working with them or should we be passing them off to someone who. Who is better suited to work with them?
Michelle
00:40:30.020 – 00:43:48.830
So Jewish weddings have various elements to them that may differ from weddings that other planners may be used to attending.
And a bit like when I mentioned earlier that we had a wedding recently where the bride was Hindu and we had some Hindu ceremonies as well as Jewish ceremonies. I’m a great believer in the power of collaboration in our industry. And I don’t. I believe that’s.
The community aspect is so much more important than just thinking we’re all in competition with each other because we all do have our own niches and our own skill sets. So I brought in a Hindu wedding coordinator to help me with that wedding.
And I think if you take on a Jewish wedding, I think especially at the start, that would be very, very advisable because we do do things slightly differently and there’s lots to learn, but it’s. It’s not rocket science and you can learn it.
So our ceremonies, I mean, I actually believe they’re beautiful, but, you know, they’re very meaningful and emotive and music plays a huge part of them. And the couple marry under. It’s called a Hooper, which is a marriage canopy. So it’s four posts covered with a.
Usually a fabric roof, and then we dress it with florals. Historically, if anybody’s watched the movie Fiddler on the Roof, you will have seen scene.
It’s basically four men holding four posts with the prayer shawl across the top.
But in this world of weddings, where we curate the most beautiful visual experiences for our guests, the Hooper has become the big installation, if you like, for. For so many of our Jewish couples today. So it’s the first thing that guests see that the Hooper design is. Is really, really important.
But then the ceremony itself, if anybody’s planning a Jewish wedding for the first time, they really need to learn about what goes on during that ceremony and what they need to do in advance to get set up for it. And also be aware, we are a small community. There’s only a couple of hundred thousands of us in the uk, but there are so many different.
I guess the best way to describe it is. Is. Is different synagogue groups, you know, different levels of observance. We.
The same thread runs through them all, but how deeply religious they are and the relative and the nuances are slightly different. And I do need to know about all of that. But, you know, I am Jewish myself.
I’ve grown up in the Jewish community all my life, so I do understand all of that. The other thing that we do is we make a big thing of entertainment. A Jewish wedding is a big party and once we sit down for dinner, we, we. We dance.
We dance before, during as well as after dinner. And therefore the entertainment is a huge part of what we do.
And whilst a lot of it will be the same music that you hear, you know, at other weddings, we do have an element of where we do. We call it the hora, or Israeli dance dancing. And that really kickstarts everything and gets everything going.
So that’s the other big thing about Jewish weddings. People who come to Jewish weddings for the first time talk about how much fun they are. It really is a big party.
Becca
00:43:49.070 – 00:44:55.090
The two things I hear you saying then coming out of that is one, get help, collaborate, speak to people who do it. Don’t think that you have to know everything.
And as you mentioned so eloquently as earlier, you’ve had this recently yourself and you haven’t just gone, well, I’m well known and I’m a great wedding planner. I’m going to do it all myself. You’re humble and you’ve off, you’ve bought in the right people to make sure it’s a great experience.
So definitely that. The second thing I hear you say, which I think actually translates into so many different areas in our industry, is not making assumptions.
So just because someone says that they are having a Jewish wedding doesn’t mean it’s the same as the Jewish wedding you’ve attended previously, because there are so many different, different varieties within that it’s the same. In church weddings. I hear people say, I never want to do a church wedding, they’re so boring.
Well, actually, if you look at church weddings, depending on who the couple is, depending on what their background is, depending on the kind of church they go to, how much they observe it or not, sometimes they can be very, very different.
And so I think as the suppliers, it’s so important for us not to make judgments and not to make assumptions and to ask questions and let them tell you exactly.
Michelle
00:44:55.160 – 00:45:41.380
Exactly. Yes, we have. I always say, this is not my wedding, it’s your wedding. And I don’t want every single one of my weddings just to be another.
Elegante by Michelle J. Production if every single one of my weddings is different, then I’ve done my job correctly, because it is.
Every single one of my weddings is there for my couple’s weddings and not my weddings. And it’s.
Even though I’m a Jewish wedding expert and a large percentage of the weddings that I plan are Jewish weddings, every single one is different. Different. And every couple has a different approach to how they want their ceremony to run, to how they want their, their reception to run.
There may be some underlying themes, but you have to ask all the questions. And that’s why they need to ask for help, because they won’t know the questions to ask until they’ve got experience of doing them.
Becca
00:45:41.380 – 00:46:05.040
Yeah, absolutely. We, we never know everything. Every single one of us needs to keep on learning, keep on asking those questions.
Michelle, I’ve got a couple of quick things to ask you, but before I let you go, the first one is we talked earlier about where your first weddings came from. If I was to ask you about any weddings or inquiries you’ve had over 24, 25, where are you finding your inquiries are coming from now?
Is it still word of mouth? Is it Search engine. Is it something else?
Michelle
00:46:05.600 – 00:47:36.700
Well, I think it’s search engine and word of mouth and I think couples might find me and then go off and do their due diligence and talk to somebody who might know me. But we’ve got a real story about something that. That happened to us for last year.
So, as I said to you, Italy’s been my thing for the last 10, 12 years. Always had a number of weddings in Italy every year.
And then suddenly the last couple of years, Italy sort of dropped off a little bit and we’ve been elsewhere in Europe. And, you know, I’ve been quite sad about that because I love working in Italy. It’s not. It’s not that I haven’t enjoyed the other weddings, but.
But it was like, what’s happening here? What’s going on?
And I think generally there have been some issues with couples perhaps perceiving Italy as a bit too expensive or wanting to try something different. But all the suppliers that I work with in Italy have been going, where are you, Michelle? Why aren’t you here? So we.
I have somebody on my team who, who handles all my blog posting and social media and we work very collaboratively on it, but we basically mean employed about a year ago, a strategy that was we need to get more Italy weddings back on the books. So we’ve been working on it slowly, slowly, slowly.
And we are more booked for Italy for next year at this point than we have ever been in all the years that I’ve been in business. And I can’t believe for one minute that that’s a coincidence. I genuinely believe that’s the strategy and being consistent with it paying off.
Becca
00:47:36.860 – 00:48:05.970
Yeah, absolutely. That’s marketing for you. You can only sell what you’re showing.
So if you make a decision to show a lot more stuff, stuff about Italy and getting married in Italy, then guess what? More people will book you to get married in Italy. It kind of goes full circle to what we were saying earlier. I love that.
So I’m glad that you’re still being proactive and thinking about those, thinking about the bigger picture as well in your business and outsourcing it to a team member who can do some of that stuff for you as well is definitely a good idea. Otherwise, if you’re still trying to do everything on your own, you’d be burnt out.
Michelle
00:48:05.970 – 00:48:15.480
Yeah, that. That’s a lesson that I learned a few years ago. Go. It’s. And I’ve got there with my team now.
I mean, it’s taken a while, but yeah, couldn’t Couldn’t do it on my own anymore.
Becca
00:48:15.480 – 00:48:30.200
Oh, absolutely. Michelle, it has been so much fun talking to you. I always ask my guests the same question to end every podcast episode.
So I’m going to pose that to you now to see what your response is. And it’s this. What’s the one thing you wish you’d known sooner in your own business?
Michelle
00:48:30.440 – 00:48:58.790
I think I, I think I told the story earlier about the client who, who had the issues with, and I think it’s, it’s, I call it now the power of saying no.
And I wish I had known back then about, I wish somebody had given me permission to say no earlier in my, in my journey because I think that took so much of me and I could have got rid of that so much earlier and moved on to other things. So I think that’s what I needed to know.
Becca
00:48:58.950 – 00:49:24.990
So important. And if you’re listening to this, you have both mine and Michelle’s permission. Permission to say no. It’s absolutely fine.
If you need to hear that today, then you have heard it here from us. Michelle, thank you so much for your time.
I’ve loved diving into your story, getting to know more about you, hearing all about what you’ve been doing and the amazing work you’ve done with all these weddings all over Europe. If people want to find out more about what you do, if they want to chat to you, where’s the best place for them to come and find you?
Michelle
00:49:24.990 – 00:49:50.730
So I’m on Instagram Elegante, which is elegant with an by Michelle J. So Elegante by Michelle J. My website is elegantebymichellej.com and those are the two best places. I am now on Tick Tock as well.
Earlier, that’s been the another for this week, but yeah, Instagram or my website, the two best ways. Or email michellegantebymichellej.com Fantastic.
Becca
00:49:50.730 – 00:50:07.510
I’ll make sure that I put all of your links in the show notes and if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, oh, I’d love to understand more or see if I could work with Michelle in the the future, reach out to her. I’m sure she’d be happy to chat. Tell her you’ve enjoyed this conversation.
Michelle, thank you for your time and I hope to see you at an event somewhere very soon.
Michelle
00:50:07.510 – 00:50:08.510
Thank you, Becca.
Becca
00:50:08.510 – 00:50:34.450
Such an interesting conversation.
I love talking to people who’ve done incredible things in their wedding businesses, but getting to the root of where it all started because as I’ve said all the way through this episode, nothing happens magically overnight. And often we see people at the peak of their success, but actually a huge amount of work’s gone in to get them to that point.
So if there’s things you want to do in your business, if there’s places you want to be, then it’s not going to be a magic answer, but actually, it’s absolutely possible for you to get there if you put in the work. I’ll see you next time.
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