Show notes:
Should my wedding business use paid ads? This is a question I get asked a lot! Whether you are considering Google Ads or boosting some social media posts – this episode is for you. Today I am chatting with the President of ‘The I Do Society’ Mark Chapman to get all the info you need before dropping a big budget on paid ads.
Find out more: https://theidosociety.com/
Join the Summer of Tiktok:
Time Stamps:
00:10 – Introduction to Wedding Business Marketing
05:30 – The Evolution of Wedding Advertising
07:57 – Navigating Advertising Strategies in Uncertain Economic Times
18:33 – Understanding the Value of Advertising Spend
22:33 – Understanding Client Needs in Advertising
30:23 – Understanding TikTok as an Entertainment Platform
35:40 – The Rise of ChatGPT in Marketing
Transcript:
Mark
00:00:00.240 – 00:00:09.440
Using your ads to get people excited about your business and build trust with them so that they just reach out and ask you a question. Advertising is not about closing a deal.
Becca
00:00:10.480 – 00:01:03.840
I’m Becca Pountney, wedding business marketing expert, speaker and blogger and you’re listening to the Wedding Pros who Are Ready to Grow podcast. I’m here to share with you actionable tips, strategies and real life examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level.
If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business, do doing what you love, then you’re in the right place. Let’s get going with today’s episode. Today I’m chatting with Mark Chapman from the I Do Society.
Having spent time working in his family’s wedding business trying to get couples through the door, he came across Google Ads and became fascinated by them.
Now his team specialize in helping wedding clients find the same success with paid advertising, working with Google Ads, meta ads, and Even everyone’s favorite TikTok. It’s an area that many of you find a mystery, so I cannot wait to get into it with Mark today. Mark. Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Mark
00:01:04.240 – 00:01:18.880
Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here.
I have listened to your podcast and I fell in love with you when I heard about the marketing theme park concept, which I am so excited to like talk to you. And we could probably talk for hours. We’re going to talk about ads and focus on that.
Becca
00:01:19.760 – 00:02:05.900
We are going to talk about ads, but I also like talking about the marketing theme park and how marketing has changed. So I’m sure it will come up in our conversation because paid ads, free ads, content, it all fits in to the idea of the theme park.
And as we all know, we’re bombarded with ads all of the time.
And so just like in the marketing theme park, we need to make our ads stand out and we’ll get into a bit more of the detail on that in a little while.
But before that, whenever I have a guest on my podcast, I always like to get to know them a little bit to make sure my listeners get to know them a little bit so they understand why they should listen to what you have to say. So I mentioned it in the intro at the beginning, but I believe you got into the world of weddings through a family business.
So tell me a little bit about what that was, how that happened.
Mark
00:02:05.980 – 00:03:22.280
Yes. Picture this. It was the year 2008. 2009. I was a wedding photographer with my sister and at the Time we were doing all the things.
Like in the States there’s like Chamber of commerce, there’s like a networking group called bni. There’s all these like networking things.
And I was like working my butt off during the week to network our family’s business and try to get people to hire us. And we were really good photographers and it was really fun. I really loved that part of it. But I was just exhausted.
I was working seven days a week all the time.
And someone actually in passing mentioned Google Ads and she had a printing company and she’s like, yeah, when I turn my Google Ads on, my phone rings and when I turn them off, it doesn’t. And I was like, that’s bullshit. Like, I don’t believe you. But I was like, whatever.
I was really tired and so I, so I actually like got to learn Google Ads for our own photography studio.
And I’ll forget when the phone rang for the first time and someone and I asked them how they heard about us because I didn’t know them, they weren’t a referral. And I like almost dropped the phone, my flip phone at the time or something like that. Yeah. And.
And that just actually turned into a passion where I started helping some other folks in the wedding industry and it became a business. Fast forward 15 years later, it’s the Idea Society and I have an amazing team of advertising experts who just focus on the wedding industry.
And that’s all that we do. We look at data all day long.
Becca
00:03:22.470 – 00:03:49.400
Okay, so you basically decided you enjoyed geeking out in the data, which a lot of wedding professionals will find scary immediately because they’re creatives on the whole. A lot of the people listening maybe love to make bouquets or they like to decorate cakes.
And so they like the sound of this paid advertising because they like the idea of the customers ringing them up. But they’re a little bit scared that it’s a difficult and the data is hard. What do you say to them?
Mark
00:03:49.720 – 00:04:38.750
They’re right. It’s hard. It really is. You know, you’re, when you’re talking about advertising, you’re talking about reaching a cold audience.
The people who see those ads and if they decide to interact with those ads, they don’t know you, they don’t like you, they don’t trust you, they don’t care about you. So the journey of them clicking on your ad to becoming a warm lead is really a long journey.
And the, the data behind that and like seeing their journey and looking at Google Analytics on the website, like seeing what they do on your website, it can be very discouraging. But if you keep in mind that they just don’t know you yet and that’s okay.
And you have to keep showing up for them in different places, it’s okay because they’re humans too. And when they’re making a big emotional decision about picking someone or something for their wedding, oh, that’s rough for them.
So the data is amazing. It’s fascinating, but you have to make peace with what it is.
Becca
00:04:38.910 – 00:05:03.450
I think that’s helpful because I think there is a mindset from people. I’ll just put some money on ads and instantly I’ll get loads of business off the back of it.
And actually, as you’ve just explained, it’s not always as simple as that. So take me back to your own place. When you started using these Google Ads in your photography business, did you do it yourself?
How did you know what to do? Did you self teach yourself and what were the things that you learned right at the early stages?
Mark
00:05:04.250 – 00:06:18.770
I taught myself and I wasted a lot of my own money but I was encouraged by that one phone call because I was like, okay, if that, if that can happen. So I did. I taught myself. I wasted a lot of my own money.
And then when I saw, when I figured it out and realized, okay, this is now I know what I’m doing, that was really fascinating and to truthful and transparent. In 2009, when I was teaching myself Google Ads, Facebook ads, meta ads didn’t exist. TikTok didn’t ex, Instagram didn’t exist.
It was actually a lot less complicated where it was a time when you put ads out and you got money from your ad campaigns because people found you and booked you. It is not that way now.
And I know I’m kind of jumping ahead, but it’s really important for folks to know that like couples need to see you in multiple places multiple times before they decide to contact you. They need to learn your story, they need to build trust. You need to build trust with them.
And it isn’t where you just put money into an ad campaign and you get these amazing warm leads and everything’s tickety boo and hunky dory. It really does.
You have to approach advertising with the mindset of, hey, we are living in an attention economy where the more attention you get, the more likely your business is going to succeed. And that’s kind of it. And it requires multiple places, multiple times.
Becca
00:06:18.930 – 00:07:05.000
Yeah, you’ve got to keep showing up.
And that’s exactly what you’ve explained is that marketing theme park idea that is no longer this clear marketing funnel where people go to Google and then they go through this nice trackable system. Actually they’re looking everywhere and everywhere’s noisy. Like we are bombarded by ads, especially on social media.
And it’s interesting because a lot of the ads, I think when we think about ads, particularly on social media, are for products and for, you know, cheap things that people can buy really quickly. And we know that ads work for that.
But yet when we’re trying to offer something like a wedding service, that feels like a much harder, much bigger sell. So do you see in 2025, in the age of the marketing theme park, where do you think this world of paid advertising fits into the picture?
In our industry, specifically, you are using.
Mark
00:07:05.000 – 00:07:33.300
Your ads to get people excited about your business and build trust with them so that they just reach out and ask you a question. Advertising is not about closing a deal. Advertising is not about like sometimes it can be used for booking one on one consultations.
But to be honest with you, like that’s going to come after, like you said, they’ve been around the block and they’ve read your reviews, which really don’t have anything to do with your ads. It’s to get their attention attention and to get them to interact with you so that you can take that conversation to the next step.
Becca
00:07:33.380 – 00:07:52.820
So it’s basically you’re trying to get your business to the front of the queue, in front of other businesses so that they know you exist. Because I think a lot of wedding businesses can be the best kept secret.
So they’re really good at what they do, but they don’t know how to tell anyone that they exist. So would you say the role of paid advertising is to basically show more people that you exist and get their interest?
Mark
00:07:53.140 – 00:08:58.930
Absolutely. I think it’s a perfect way to wrap that up. And there’s one additive to that.
Like in, like when we’re recording this podcast right now, like there’s a lot of economic uncertainty happening and I want to share what a strategy is during times of economic uncertainty with advertising.
When it comes to getting to the front of the queue, promoting an irresistible offer is a really important way during weird economic times to make sure that, that the couples and brides who see you, that they remember you and they want to take a step forward and there’s a whole conversation that could be had about like, what’s an irresistible offer for my business, but we’ll put a pin in that for a min.
In times where of economic prosperity Offers can feel salesy and weird, but in times of economic uncertainty, people’s perception of offers actually changes.
And so one thing I want to share with folks, if they’re listening right now, is that promoting an irresistible offer with your ad campaign is a very, very, very important strategy to help people make that. Make feel comfortable taking that first step. Because everyone’s sort of sitting on their bank accounts right now.
Everyone’s sort of like, I don’t know what I want to spend or when I want to spend it because I don’t know what’s going to happen in the next six months. That irresistible offer is the key to moving more people through.
Becca
00:08:58.930 – 00:09:32.830
That’s really interesting. And when there’s a good economic situation, it looks salesy, but when there’s a bad economic situation, it actually looks attractive.
I think that’s a really interesting way to look at it. Now let me throw that back to you then, because you said that we could talk for ages about what an irresistible offer is.
People who listen to this podcast will know that I have a phrase that is Disney, never discount. So I’m always trying to encourage people to hold prices and not slash their prices and to add value instead.
So can an irresistible offer be adding additional value rather than just saying, now I’m dirt cheap?
Mark
00:09:33.070 – 00:10:34.370
You have no idea how glad I am you asked that to clarify that question. Because it’s not a discount.
There are so many things that we do for our clients that we’re just going to do anyway that we roll into their packages but could be separated out as an offer. Here’s one example, and this is like, this isn’t going to be the example for everyone, but people will get the idea you’re a venue.
And you may just by the nature of who you are as a venue, maybe you offer the space at no additional cost the night before for the rehearsal so people can show up, get everything oriented.
But you just do that because you’re a nice business owner and that’s part of who you are and what you do, packaging that as something of value to the couple and saying, hey, you know what?
Right now we’re offering the venue for the night before at no additional cost so you can make sure that everything goes perfectly on your wedding day. So it’s not a discount, it’s an added on value and it’s something you do anyway. It doesn’t cost you any more.
And I know there’s literally a thousand different variations of that, so take it for what it is. But you’re right, it is absolutely Not a discount to cheapen your service. It’s a value add.
Becca
00:10:34.450 – 00:10:55.250
Right.
I think it was important to clarify that because I’m sure some people are listening, thinking, oh, no, I’ve got to say £500 or dollars off to get the sale.
So would you say that in paid advertising, are we always looking in the wedding industry to lead with this irresistible offer, or does that come down the line as some kind of retargeting campaign? Do people lead with other things just to get attention?
Mark
00:10:55.830 – 00:11:19.830
Because brides and couples are so overwhelmed with messages, it is a really important strategy to lead with it in advertising. It’s during economic times that are uncertain.
Now, if it were a year or two ago, I would say it’s not as important to lead with that because people are on their journey, they’re discovering, they’re figuring things out. But I do feel that in today’s current environment, that leading with it is really important.
Becca
00:11:20.310 – 00:11:29.530
Okay, so the first thing we’re looking to do is work out what that irresistible offer is for us in our business and then look at how we can promote that through paid advertising.
Mark
00:11:29.530 – 00:12:16.430
That’s exactly it. And just know that when you promote the irresistible offer, that couple’s going to see your ad.
They’re not probably not going to take advantage of that and contact you right away because they don’t know anything about you yet.
But it got you their attention quicker and it put you in a different position than your competition if that offer is something that they value deeply.
So they’re going to end up taking that same long journey of looking at your reviews, going to your Instagram handle, and seeing if you’re alive and well on Instagram. And there may be a case where, like, they don’t even remember that that offer was presented to them when they you.
And then you don’t have to offer it, and it’s okay. But what it does is it grabs their attention, helps you stand out in that marketing theme park, it’s the churro.
If they want churros, it’s the dole whip at Disney, if they want the dole whip, it is the thing that motivates them to walk in that direction.
Becca
00:12:16.590 – 00:13:07.020
Yeah, absolutely. And as we know, we need something to hook their attention. Otherwise, you’re just the same as everyone else and they’ll go in a different direction.
So we need that thing to make us stand out. So let’s just talk about Google Ads. Let’s separate from social, and we’ll come back to social in a minute. But first, for a moment on Google Ads.
I’ve got a couple of questions. So one thing I do for my clients is I might do a full marketing review for someone. So a venue will come to me and I’ll do a full marketing review.
I’ll look at everything that they’re showing and I’ll look at where they’re showing up on Google and all that kind of thing and feed it back to them.
And quite often, particularly venues I work with, but other vendors as well, I’ll say something that you’re not showing up on Google until page five, you know, something really terrible and you need to put some work into your SEO. And they’ll say back to me, would it be quicker for me to put money into into Google Ads whilst I build up my SEO?
So posing that question to you now to find out what you think.
Mark
00:13:07.260 – 00:14:13.800
Absolutely. Like, that’s the beauty of when you pay a whole bunch of money for something like you get, you get the results right away.
You know, organic SEO is super important for businesses and there’s different levels of organic SEO and I’m not an SEO expert, so I can’t speak to those.
But I do know that if there is an important search term for your business and you’re not ranking for it and you want to rank for it, spending money on Google Ads can get you that attention and that space on the Google search results page immediately. Taking into account a lot of people hate ads and a lot of people absolutely refuse to click on ads. That’s okay.
If someone’s like, I refuse to click on ads no matter how wonderful this offer is or how wonderful a small business is, that’s great because then you don’t pay Google anything because nobody clicked on your. The person didn’t click on your ad.
But we also live in an age where Gen Z, younger millennials folks are like realizing that advertising is a part of the world on the Internet and there is less aversion to ads as there in the past as there was in the past. So it’s okay either way because it’s called pay per click.
And you pay if someone who is in your demographic targeting audience who searched the right keywords sees your offer and wants to take action on it.
Becca
00:14:14.040 – 00:14:42.020
And it’s interesting that you say about the clicks actually, because I’ve been reflecting on my own behavior recently and I don’t know if it’s the way Google is setting it up. It probably is, but on my phone I’m always clicking on the paid links now when I don’t think I did before.
Mainly because they take up the whole real estate on the screen.
And so I forget that they’re the ads because they’re kind of blended in and I just, and I click on it and it’s only after I clicked and I think, oh yeah, that was the ad. And so I actually think people probably are clicking on them more because they’re making us click on them more.
Mark
00:14:42.020 – 00:14:44.780
There’s no shortage of people clicking on ads, that’s for sure.
Becca
00:14:45.340 – 00:15:09.270
Okay, so we don’t need to be scared of the paid ads. So if, let’s be this venue then.
So I’m this venue, I’m thinking, okay, I’m on page five of Google, I want to be found for, I don’t know, wedding venue Essex or something like that here in the uk, It’s a county here. So would they just go and try and find that keyword? Would they need to go and find an expert to help them?
Is it possible for them to do it themselves? Give us some thoughts on where they would start.
Mark
00:15:09.430 – 00:16:01.700
Yeah, if you decide to do it yourself and you aren’t very certain of like what keywords to choose, you’re going to put a lot of keywords into the Google Ads system and you’re going to spend some money and you’re probably going to learn that it wasn’t all what you wanted it to be.
If you have some expert like yourself that people work with and they go through strategy and they learn and they can focus on a few keywords and you spend less money on them, but you’re certain of those keywords then excellent. You’re going to be seeing more quality results faster by less trial and error.
But there’s no judgment and there’s no wrong answer and it’s okay not to know. It’s okay to like take some time to figure it out. Just, just come to terms with the fact that you’re going to spend a little bit of money learning.
And once you’ve spent that money and you’ve learned, excellent, you have a data based answer that isn’t based on anyone’s opinion or anyone’s feelings. It’s data and you can’t argue with the data. So great, you spent your money and you’ve learned something valuable for your business.
Becca
00:16:02.020 – 00:16:18.000
Okay, great. So in the Google system, will it just tell you how much it costs you for a cost per click?
So if my wedding venue client went into the system, they’re like, I want to be found for wedding venue Essex. They put that in as their keyword. Will Google tell them what that will cost them per click.
Mark
00:16:18.160 – 00:17:15.090
There is a tool called the Keyword Planner, and it is the tool that gives you the answer for that. But I’ll be super transparent with you. It’s not often correct. It can be a lot more. It can be a lot less.
I was actually just looking at the Keyword Planner for one of our clients the other day, and it said that clicks for that particular keyword should be $16 a click, which is insane, but they’re actually paying 65 cents. And so the Google data doesn’t match up with real life.
And part of it, Becca, is that Google data in the advertising platform that tells you this is based on the past, it’s not based on the future. There’s no way to know in the future how many people are going to search for a certain keyword, how many people are going to.
How many businesses are going to be advertising for that keyword. It’s this crazy open marketplace that shifts and changes every single moment. And so you can look at that data, but it may or may not be correct.
And truly the only way to get real data is by creating that campaign, running those keywords, and looking at it a couple of weeks later and being like, oh, okay, that’s what it is.
Becca
00:17:15.170 – 00:17:30.290
So is it.
If you’re wanting to do it yourself, would you say that it’s important that you test, test, test, test, and then review the data to make decisions going forward? Because what I think a lot of people do is just throw some money at it and then say, oh, it didn’t work, and then just forget about it.
Mark
00:17:30.450 – 00:18:32.690
Oh, my God. Absolutely.
So, and this is like the biggest pain point that I feel for, because I meet with a lot of people every week talking about, like, opportunities to work with us if it’s the right fit or whatever. And what happens is it’s like, well, I spent this amount of money and it didn’t work. So what are you going to do different?
What they didn’t do is they didn’t test or they didn’t look at the right data, and they didn’t. Honestly, they didn’t know what to look at because they’re busy running a business and they’re. And they’re amazing, incredibly smart people.
But, like, humans can only do so many things in the course of their day. So you’re totally right. Like, testing is really important. Your strategy is really important.
Like, we talked about the offer, and if you’re going to do it yourself, you don’t have to spend a ton of money, but you do have to Be willing to give it some time. The results are based on either time or money. The more money you spend, the more data you get, the faster you get it.
If you’re not willing to spend like $2,000 a month, that’s okay. But then if you’re going to spend $200 a month, then you need like a year’s worth of data to realize. Okay, so you don’t, you don’t get to shortcut.
There’s no shortcut in that. It’s either time or money and you have to look at the data and test.
Becca
00:18:33.010 – 00:18:45.770
Okay, so following on from that, then I think the other question I get asked the most, which I definitely don’t have an answer for, is how much money should I be spending on my ads? Is there a minimum? Should I be spending a certain amount every month?
Mark
00:18:45.840 – 00:18:46.040
Month?
Becca
00:18:46.040 – 00:18:51.600
Is it. How long is a piece of string kind of answer? Or have you got something that you say to these people?
Mark
00:18:51.760 – 00:20:01.300
Yeah, so there’s this like old marketing, there’s this old like business rule. It’s like you should spend 5 to 10% of your budget on marketing, blah, blah, blah.
That’s all well and good, but in the world, in today’s world, when it comes to reaching couples multiple times in multiple places, that number doesn’t matter whether you have an income of a hundred thousand dollars a year or $100 million a year. It’s not a percentage anymore.
It’s about what, what amount of money does it cost to reach that couple, who’s couple on Google and then reach them again on Meta and make sure that they see you again over the Internet. And so the, to be honest, there isn’t a really good number that I can give you because every business is different.
But what we like to say is like, hey, it’s really important that you consider about $1,000 a month so that you can have a healthy Google Ads campaign and a healthy meta ads campaign running at the same time. Split it 50, 50. Make sure those couples see you in both places. And that’s quite a bit of money for some small businesses.
It’s okay that that’s a lot of money. Don’t run ads if you’re not able to spend around that amount because you’re going to put some money in.
It’s either going to take you six months and your business has changed or you’re going to say it’s not, doesn’t work, or you’re just not going to reach people enough if you don’t invest in the ad platforms.
Becca
00:20:01.540 – 00:20:36.960
That’s really helpful.
And that brings me on to my next question because I think a lot of people, when we’re thinking about meta ads now moving over to social media, I think a lot of people got burnt in the early days of meta ad ads where they just said, boost this post 10 pounds, $20, $50 and it just did nothing. And it was so easy to do because obviously meta make it really easy to do and they still tell me all of the time, boost this post.
Boost this reel five pounds and it does nothing. So is that strategy completely pointless or is there ever a place when we should be doing something like that?
Mark
00:20:36.960 – 00:21:37.330
It’s completely pointless. It’s a boost box. It is awful that meta does that.
And there are companies like Target and Starbucks where like, you know, it’s a huge company and they can spend a million dollars on ads in a month and like their goal is just to reach people, let people know that Target has a sale or whatever. Small business owners need to spend their money so much more wisely.
And boosting post does not give you all of the options to target by demographics and all the bidding strategies and all the different options that you have when you go into meta Ads Manager and you create a campaign from scrat scratch.
So unfortunately, and there are still so many people just boosting posts because it feels good to spend 15 and to know that you’re doing something good for your business by reaching people. It’s pointless. Don’t do it. Don’t give Mark Zuckerberg that money. His house is big enough already. He doesn’t need another room in his house. Literally.
If you’re going to advertise, do it correctly and create a campaign in the meta Ads biz in the. In the meta Ads business manager ad platform.
Becca
00:21:37.960 – 00:22:08.730
Really helpful. And I think a lot of people need to hear that message.
So thank you for your honesty because I think it is easy and it feels good and we feel like, well, just more people will see my stuff and it’s easy to do.
And actually what we need to be doing, the perfect example is actually a lot harder for us to comprehend because like you said earlier, it’s going to take us time and it’s going to take us serious investment and it’s going to make us look at the data or find someone to work with. And so it feels like the path of least resistance is to just stick 10 pounds on an ad and say, I did some advertising.
Mark
00:22:09.130 – 00:22:28.050
Yeah. And it’s super band aid, right? It feels good. You eat a cookie and you’re like, wow, that was beautiful.
And then like an hour later, like, I’m gonna have a second cookie. But this doesn’t feel as good because now I feel guilty and it’s not doing anything for my waistline. Maybe that’s a bad analogy.
But anyway, I need a cookie. I think that’s always need.
Becca
00:22:28.050 – 00:23:00.850
I always need a cookie. Absolutely. So, okay, so we have our client. Let’s go to a different client type now.
Let’s say it’s a photographer and they’ve realized that boosting a post is doing nothing.
They’ve got a reasonably good income coming into their wedding business, but they know that they could do more and they want to go down this ad route. They come to you and they say, mark, I’ve got a decent budget. How can I spend it wisely? And what is going to work?
What’s going on in the wedding industry right now? Am I splitting it between platforms? Am I putting it on certain keywords? Give us an oversight.
Mark
00:23:00.850 – 00:23:55.160
I want you to first spend your money on Google Ads. Because on Google, couples who don’t already have a photographer or don’t have a referral and are looking for a photographer are searching for you.
They are searching on Google for a photographer at Essex or wherever. They’re wherever. Basically like geography.
Use geography as your keyword because people are typically searching for small businesses in the wedding is industry by geography.
So you’re spending a little bit of money on Google and you’re using those keywords, maybe a couple keywords and then you’re spending some of that money on meta, where obviously it’s so much more visual. Right. You have reels, you have, you can showcase your beautiful photography work and it’s very eye catching and very emotional.
So not only did they see you when they searched and they like found your website. Okay, great.
And then they see you again and they see your work and they see maybe a reel you’ve created that’s like stitched photos together or customer or client testimonial or something like that. So splitting between the two platforms and making sure they see you in multiple places multiple times.
Becca
00:23:56.050 – 00:23:59.170
Okay. And with that irresistible offer in both places.
Mark
00:23:59.890 – 00:24:41.650
Yes, yep. Not as important in Google, I would say.
And I’m sorry that I’m not being super clear about this because it’s like weird how the economy is shifting and changing right now. So I’m like, oh, every day I was like, you know what I mean?
The offer is not as important in Google because they’re actively searching for you in that moment. Right. So like they’re going to go and click and find you on meta.
When they’re scrolling through Instagram and they see posts and see ads and things like that, they’re not in that moment looking for you.
So that offer is a lot more important there because then it catches their eye and you’re like, oh, I remember this photographer from my search on Google. And here now they’re offering me something that I actually really value. So double whammy offer is most important on meta.
Becca
00:24:41.970 – 00:25:08.050
Okay, that’s really helpful. Now the next thing I want to ask you about is how we track whether or not this stuff’s working.
So my photographer client has come to you, they’ve given you a thousand dollars, they’ve paid your fees, they’ve done everything they need to do.
I don’t know what that, what your budget is, and they’ve run three months or whatever of campaign and then they’re coming to you and going, did it work? So what things are you looking at to be able to answer that question? Did it work?
Mark
00:25:08.210 – 00:26:48.110
Yes. The technical word is conversion tracking.
So you’re putting the meta pixel on your website, you’re putting Google Analytics on your website and you can basically something you want to hire someone for to set this tracking up. Because you can attribute leads to campaigns and say this campaign got this many leads or this ad got this many leads.
When you have a really great offer that people take action on and there’s tracking setup, you can know if they filled out your form or they clicked and you started chatting with you, or they clicked to text you.
So tracking all the different places on your website where someone takes an action that starts a conversation with you as possible through the ad platforms. There’s one caveat to that and a little bit of a catch.
A couple years ago there was an update to Apple devices, so it’s called iOS 14 and Apple devices. They prompted everyone who has apps on their phone to say, do you want to ask this app not to track you or do you want to allow the app to track you?
Pretty much everyone said, please don’t track me. So the tracking data is absolutely not perfect. And a lot of times it’s fragmented and broken.
But that doesn’t mean that you still can’t get some data in there and some sense of how things are going. So it’s not perfect. You can track it, take it with a grain of salt.
But another real life way that people may answer that question is when you’re a business in the wedding industry, people, if someone, if someone came to you because of a referral. People are super honest about that. They’re like, oh, yeah, you know what? My friend Janet, she told me about you, and here I am.
And so you can sort of track in your own little way, like, oh, yeah, this was a referral. This was like, I don’t know where this came from. They probably came from your ad campaign because they didn’t have anyone to give credit to.
Becca
00:26:48.510 – 00:27:00.830
And that’s a bit like your story at the beginning when you said you knew your ad had worked because the person who called you in your photography studio was someone you didn’t know, and you didn’t know where they come from. So therefore, you attributed it and realized they must have come from Google.
Mark
00:27:01.230 – 00:27:03.710
So cool. And that’s before I knew about tracking also.
Becca
00:27:05.310 – 00:28:17.040
And the thing is, I know this is not a sales pitch for you at all, but. But I think as you talk, it’s more and more clear to me why people need to pay the expert to do these things, because it is complicated.
As a small business owner, I say this about what I do all the time.
You spend your years learning your craft of making a wedding cake or creating a bouquet or taking a great photo, and I am terrible at doing all of those things. Right. But I spent years learning my craft of marketing. You’ve spent years learning your craft of paid advertising.
And so the person who’s amazing at flowers shouldn’t expect to be amazing at understanding paid advertising and data.
And actually, there comes a point where you’ve got to just go, actually, if I want to get this right and I want to see a return on my investment, I am going to have to invest something into my business. And I think as small business owners, we find that hard because we think we should be able to do everything ourselves.
But actually, if you’re listening to this episode and you’re thinking, this is way over my head. This has got complicated. We’re talking about pixels and analytics and tracking and data.
Well, actually, that’s a sign that you probably don’t want to try and do this yourself. And you’re better to wait, save up the budget, and get to a place in your business where you can pay someone to do it for you. Would you agree?
Mark
00:28:17.280 – 00:29:04.350
I would totally agree. I mean, that’s what I do. What I do. And it isn’t a sales pitch either. Like, I actually, I’m very passionate about this.
Hopefully people can hear it in my voice. I totally nerd out on it. But, you know, also, I have no judgment for people who want to do it themselves. Because that was me.
And every business owner who starts their business and goes on that journey, you discover things. You’re like, oh, shit. It’s like, I have another problem to solve. And, you know, I.
When I started my business, I was in my mid-20s, and so it was like, really? I had a lot of energy for that sort of stuff.
So, like, if you’re a young person and you’ve got a lot of energy and you want to learn to do it on your own as well as to do your craft, like, do it. If you’re, like, down the path a little bit and you’re like, hell, no, I don’t have the brain space, I would rather just, like, have a martini then.
Then there’s a different scenario for, like, considering hiring someone, and either way is okay.
Becca
00:29:04.350 – 00:30:13.710
Yeah. And it goes back to that thing you said earlier as well. You’ve either got to spend time or money.
So if you don’t have the money to hire someone, you’ve got to find the time to really learn about this stuff and look into it and test it for yourself and possibly lose money along the way in order to make it happen. So, yeah, don’t be ashamed of that. Yeah, absolutely. There’s no shame in it. It’s interesting hearing you talk because we all do this.
We do it in our own businesses. We may be the experts, but we still make the mistakes. And one of the things I’ve been talking a lot about at the moment is TikTok.
And we’ll come on to TikTok ads in a minute because I’ve got question there too. And I’ve been trying my hand at TikTok because I’ve been telling everyone they need to be on TikTok.
And quite honestly, I’m old and I don’t really understand TikTok. And so I finally gave in and was like, I’m just gonna hire someone.
So I hired this person into my business with the sole purpose of creating me, TikTok and Instagram content. Oh, my goodness me. I should have paid someone to do it sooner because they’re incredible.
And my views went up 5,000% in a month because they know what they’re doing. And I might be a good marketer, but I don’t understand the intricacies of TikTok.
So actually, sometimes we do just have to humble ourselves and go, you know what? Someone else may be able to do this better than me and get me the result.
Mark
00:30:13.790 – 00:30:21.870
And it’s totally okay. It is totally okay. You can’t be a Jack of all trades is a master of none. There’s that lays that like it’s okay.
Becca
00:30:22.029 – 00:30:42.820
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, let’s talk about TikTok then, because I know TikTok ads is also something that you do.
And I’ve been talking about TikTok a lot because we know that couples are flocking there. We know that a lot of people are interested in it it. But I don’t understand anything about TikTok, let alone TikTok advertising.
So are you seeing things that are working for wedding supplier clients right now on TikTok?
Mark
00:30:42.820 – 00:32:36.750
It’s very different than Instagram and Google. TikTok considers itself an entertainment platform, whereas, like, Instagram is a social media platform.
And the word social means that like people are sharing about their personal lives, you’re connecting with your friends, whereas on TikTok, very few people are actually sharing, but there’s a whole bunch of people creating content. Right. But it’s not a social media platform. It’s literally an entertainment platform.
So understanding it as an entertainment platform, step number one, second step is that people are not searching on TikTok like they are on Google. So, okay, you can’t expect the same results.
I’m doing air quotes from Google as you can on TikTok because, like, they’re searching for a photographer in Essex.
They’re not searching for a photographer necessarily on TikTok, but yet, because I think TikTok is actually becoming more of a search platform than people realize. Quick rabbit trail.
One of my team members, a couple months ago, we were at like this conference and we were talking about something and she’s like, oh my God, I need to TikTok that. And I had this like light bulb moment where I was like, oh, crap.
She means she’s gonna search on TikTok for short form videos about the, the topic we just talked about so she can learn about it because she’d rather learn about it from fun short form videos than something else. I was like, oh my gosh. And she’s of the perfect age for that. Where all of us as wedding business owners are trying to target.
And I was like, oh, God, there’s something happening here. Anyway, that’s a quick rabbit trail. TikTok is, you know, it’s entertainment. It’s.
It’s because it made, I think it makes people’s media time on their phone more focused on like short form videos.
And this is why Instagram, like leaned into reels so hard because they realized what was happening over there where Instagram is like pretty pictures and TikTok was like really gritty, normal, organic, down to earth stuff. And so it’s a platform that I think is going to change the wedding industry. But people are super resistant because they’re tired.
And I, I was tired and I was like, I need to learn TikTok and I actually love TikTok. I’m a 45 year old man with a lot of gr hair and not the ideal like TikTok TikToker person, but I love that platform so much more.
Becca
00:32:37.470 – 00:32:47.110
Okay, so with all that in mind then the entertainment hat on, what on earth are the ads looking like that are working in the wedding industry? How do you create an entertainment type ad?
Mark
00:32:47.110 – 00:33:24.220
You actually asked that question. I’m so sorry. I went on like a rabbit trail detour.
The ads that work really well on TikTok are educational, they’re informational, they’re helpful, they’re not salesy, although they can include a strong offer. But if you communicate that offer in like a fun way. Right. TikTok is all about like dancing and music and things like that.
So it can’t be like come to my business for this offer. It has to be a little bit more creative and do it that way.
Um, so yeah, think about the people who are using TikTok and think about what else they’re experiencing on that platform and use your ad and create ads that match that vibe. For a lack of better way to.
Becca
00:33:24.220 – 00:33:36.040
Say it, what are we measuring on TikTok? Are we measuring people like the views that the post get?
Are we trying to just reach more people which we talked to about earlier, or are we actually trying to convert them in some way, shape or form?
Mark
00:33:36.040 – 00:34:26.180
Measuring on TikTok for advertising really comes down right now to getting people off the platform to visit your website. Every TikTok ad has a learn more button. It’s like a pinkish reddish TikTok color.
And you know, people aren’t on there to make decisions about their wedding. But if you have a good ad with a good offer, they’ll click that learn more button and go to your website.
They’re probably not going to convert in that moment because they’re probably in bed at like 12:30am and they’re not necessarily like in that moment of doing things.
But the fact that they saw you on TikTok and they learned something from you, if it was educational, really helps your brand stand out in their mind as the experts or the company that I want to go to later on when I’m planning my, you know, figuring out what photographer I want to use for my wedding. I’m going to go back then to Google because I remember the Google, I remember the TikTok.
I’m gonna go back to Google and Google that photographer and go right to their website organically.
Becca
00:34:26.420 – 00:35:09.680
And that’s exactly what I do if I find an advert is I screenshot it most of the time because I don’t want to do it right there.
And right then I screenshot the advert, I save it in my phone, phone, and then later on I go back to the adverts because I can’t remember the name of whatever the product or service was.
And then I Google it, which is why this marketing theme park is the wild west, because people are coming and going from everywhere and it is really hard to track because as I said in that episode, you know, they may see you on TikTok and then come to your website and then see on Instagram and then fill in a form somewhere else. Like it’s everywhere. And so it is really difficult for us to know what is and isn’t working.
But yeah, that’s interesting to see TikTok as that entertainment platform and to realize whatever you’re doing over there, it needs to be very entertainment based in order to hook people in and to accept.
Mark
00:35:09.680 – 00:35:26.880
It for what it is. Don’t expect more from it and get mad when you don’t get more from it. Because it isn’t. It isn’t that. But does that mean that it can’t.
But that doesn’t mean it can’t help your business. It doesn’t mean that it can’t help you book more couples. It just means that you have to put that TikTok.
You have to put TikTok in a box for where it is. And that’s okay.
Becca
00:35:27.200 – 00:35:49.000
Yeah. Now, whenever I have another marketer on a podcast with me, I love to geek out.
So I’ve got a very controversial question to end on, but I want to chat to you about this because. Because I think it’s going to impact you and what you do. So AI is obviously massively on the rise. More and more people are searching using ChatGPT.
How long do you think it is before ChatGPT starts including apps?
Mark
00:35:49.000 – 00:36:32.140
Not long. My friend there, Sam Altman, is burning money. He can’t burn money fast enough.
I was listening to this, like, I was listening to him speak on something and he’s like, he’s like, basically when you type in please and thank you, that cost me millions of dollars into your chat GPT. Like if you say please create or thank you for like, cause creates more data for ChatGPT to like, process and it costs more money.
And so he’s like, he’s. Bailey is like, please don’t type in please and thank you. Just ask it for what you need.
So I think that it’s not going to be long before ChatGPT starts using ads or in some way monetizes it, which is going to be an ad format, maybe not like Google where it’s like, ads are the results, but there’s something that’s going to happen in there to bring money to ChatGPT.
Becca
00:36:32.380 – 00:37:23.700
Well, I think the industry is just. The world is going to cry out for it soon as business owners.
I’m going to tell you another story because I’m an little bit sad like this, but someone told me earlier about how the app now on ChatGPT, you can talk to it and you can just talk back and forth to it. So while I was cooking dinner this evening, I was trying this out, I was talking back and forward with the ChatGPT lady, whoever, she was so cool.
And I was asking this, this person questions about what’s the best wedding industry podcast, what’s the best wedding industry podcast in the uk? Because I was interested whether mine came up anywhere. And then I was like asking her questions like, why did you not suggest Becca Pound’s podcast?
Why is she not the best in the uk?
And then I was thinking to myself, I wonder how much I would for it to say that mine was the best in the uk, which is what got me thinking about this whole, whole idea. Because people are listening to what they say and people are asking it more questions.
And so for business owners like us, we want to be appearing in those results.
Mark
00:37:23.780 – 00:37:33.180
Yeah, no wonder. Could you just tell her like, hey, listen, ChatGPT lady, we are the best podcast in the UK and I want you to tell other people that.
Yeah, I did see what happens.
Becca
00:37:33.180 – 00:38:09.020
I did. In fact, I said, why did you not mention Becca Patney’s podcast? Hers is the best in the UK and probably the world.
And she said, I don’t necessarily come here to promote certain people. I just give you a range of results based on who I think you are.
But I, I think, I think it’s something we’re going to see soon and I am interested to see where it goes because I am definitely seeing an increase.
I don’t know if you are, but I’m definitely seeing an increase here in, in people searching, as in couples are searching and finding their suppliers on Chat GPT and Saying it when they speak to people. Where did you find me? I found you using Chat GPT. GPT?
Mark
00:38:09.020 – 00:38:46.170
Yep. And at the moment, right now, like, organic SEO is super, super important for, like, chat chatgpt.
Pulling information and giving those recommendations and results. You know, I think at the moment there isn’t a crossover between ads and Chat GPT, so. But that day is coming and I. I’m here for it. I’m ready for it.
I’ve been in this game, girlfriend, long enough to where it’s like the big shifts happen and, like, cool, it’s shifting. Let’s go there and let’s do it. And I cannot wait, wait for ChatGPT to start monetizing.
I know that sounds kind of awful because it’s so nice right now that it’s like not monetized. It’s like 20 bucks a month. But listen, the world we live in costs money and that’s what’s going to happen.
Becca
00:38:46.250 – 00:39:08.030
And we’re marketers, so we like to understand how we can market to the people more effectively. And unfortunately, that’s why it’s controversial. Question. I do think it’s going to be really beneficial.
And, you know, Mark, once they start doing it, you’re going to have to reach out to me and say, becca, now there’s a way to make yourself number one. Whenever someone asks which is the best podcast in the uk, you could just pay to be there. Pay to play, my friend.
Mark
00:39:08.110 – 00:39:13.150
Yeah, I can’t wait. I can’t wait to have that conversation with you. It’s going to be so fascinating. Oh, my gosh.
Becca
00:39:13.470 – 00:39:37.640
Yeah, I look forward to that happening soon. Now, before we close, is there any big mistakes you see people making in the wedding industry when it comes to paid advertising?
Because now people have listened to this episode, there’ll be a variety of people thinking, oh, I could give this a go myself, or I want to put some budget towards this, or maybe I should work with Mark and find out how much he costs. What are the big pitfalls? What are the big mistakes they might make when they get going?
Mark
00:39:37.640 – 00:40:55.760
Do you have two more hours? I’m just kidding. No.
Here’s one thing I think that stands out, particularly right now in this moment, is that one of the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to paid advertising is not having their strategy in place beforehand.
And what I mean by this is a lot of businesses in our industry are like, well, we have the best experience or our customer service is better than so and so and so. That becomes their default message in their ad campaigns.
And if we put ourselves in their shoes, of a bride or a couple who’s, like, thinking about hiring someone for the most important day of their lives, customer service and experience is. Should be a given. It’s. No, that should be, like, that’s what I’m hiring you for.
So you telling me that as, like, your value proposition and your ad campaign does absolutely nothing for me. And so, you know, we talked a lot about, like, creating an irresistible offer. That’s.
That’s something to make your strategy of your ad campaign in today’s current environment.
And if it isn’t an irresistible offer and times change, someone’s listening to this a long time from now, making sure that your ad campaign promotes a message that. That helps you stand out.
Because you can have a crappy website, you can have really crappy ad copy, you can have, like, not the best images, but if you are promoting something that makes you completely unique and something that they can’t get anywhere else, that is gonna be the thing that causes that person to take action on your ad. It’s the most important thing that you can do.
Becca
00:40:55.760 – 00:41:37.090
Amazing. So helpful. Mark, this conversation has been really fascinating. We’ve been all around the houses.
I’ve asked my different questions that I know that the listeners will be shouting out when they’re listening to this. And I think you’ve answered them all in a really succinct.
But my big takeaway is this is actually quite a complicated subject, and to do it well, you’ve either got to spend a lot of time learning about it and understanding it and researching it and testing it, or you’ve got to save up.
Don’t waste your money on boosting posts and just throwing a little bit of money here and there, but actually save up and use it as a proper marketing strategy with an expert. Now, I always end my podcast with the same question, and it’s this. What is one thing you personally wish you’d known sooner in your own business?
Mark
00:41:37.090 – 00:42:04.640
Oh, my gosh, if I wish I’d known sooner, I wish I had known that business is always going to change and evolve. And you cannot sit on your. Sit on your ass and, like, expect things to be the same every quarter, every six months.
And I wish I had known that and come to terms with it sooner rather than, like, kind of complaining about it and being like, I have to change and evolve. I wish I had become a person right from the beginning that accepted that and embraced it and was ready to go.
Becca
00:42:04.640 – 00:42:42.850
Yeah. And it’s true. And right now, things are changing quicker than ever, I believe with the rise of the AI, things are changing all the time.
Technology’s changing all the time, algorithms are changing all the time. What isn’t, isn’t allowed on the Internet is changing all of the time and it is difficult to keep up. And I think you’re right.
We have to just embrace it and go with the flow because those are the vendors that will survive those seasons, whereas the people who just sit and bemoan it and wish it was back to how it used to be. Other people that sadly end up going out of business. This has been fabulous.
If people listening want to find out more from you, work with you, discover more about what you do, where’s the best places for them to find and connect with you?
Mark
00:42:42.850 – 00:42:50.490
Our website is the idosociety.com the best place to learn about what we do with advertising and to reach out and start a conversation.
Becca
00:42:50.570 – 00:42:57.990
Amazing. And do you have any free resources or anything on there that people can use or learn about, or is it just finding out how to work with you?
Mark
00:42:58.070 – 00:43:22.540
You know what, at the moment, it’s just finding out how to, how to work with us because our team is really extremely busy. Gratefully.
But, like, if you’re listening and you wanted to, like, have an audit of your ad campaigns, if you’re running ads, I’d be more than happy to do that.
And there’s an email to click on on our website and you can reach out and say, hey, I heard about Mark on this podcast and I want to have an audit of our ads, or I want to like, you know, something along those lines, happy to do it and there’s no cost to that, so go ahead and reach out and that way.
Becca
00:43:22.540 – 00:43:54.320
That’s ever so generous of you. Thank you so much.
And there’s a couple of people I’m thinking about who I know that would be really beneficial for because they are on that cusp of thinking, I’ve been doing it myself, but I need to invest more and I need to get this right. And so just having someone who understands just take a look and advise them whether it’s worth investing more in it would be super beneficial.
So if you’re listening and that resonates with you, then do go check out the website and go and find that email and connect with Mark. Mark, thank you so much for your time. It’s been such a pleasure and I hope to see you somewhere in the world world to catch up again very soon.
Mark
00:43:54.320 – 00:43:58.760
You will, you will. I’m out and about and thank you so much for asking those great questions. I really appreciate it.
Becca
00:43:58.760 – 00:44:30.840
Anytime. Thank you so much. Goodbye. What a fantastic conversation that was with Mark.
I absolutely love to geek out with fellow marketing experts, as you know, but this is complicated stuff and I know some of you will find it overwhelming. So take a pause, reflect, maybe go back and listen to the episode again. And maybe now isn’t the time for you to go for your paid advertisement.
Or maybe something you’ve heard has made you think. Actually, I do need to seriously invest. If that is you, then get in touch with Mark, take that free audit and chat to him.
He’s got some great stuff to say.
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